Unknown butterfly view 2 - Vanessa virginiensis

intergrades

Vanessa annabella (the Western Painted Lady) and V. virginiensis are probably in different sections of the genus, and not particularly closely related to one another (as Ladies go); so, it is highly unlikely that they can hybridize.

This photo is a quite normal V. virginiensis, and the orange where the white "should be" is not unusual in this species (as evidenced by the several thumbnails attached here now), though it is seen in only a minority of individuals.

Now some trivia. The American Lady IS closely related to South American V. altissima (Andean Lady) and V. brasiliensis[/i] (Brazilian or Double-eyed Lady), which I think are perhaps just subspecies of the American Lady. V. myrinna (Banded Lady) and V. terpsichore (Chilean Lady) are also very close relatives from South America, but distinctly different. V. cardui (Painted Lady) may be closely related too, but not nearly as close. Look up pictures on the internet, and you'll see some very similar, and pretty butterflies.

As for V. annabella, it's just about identical to South American V. carye (Four-eyed Lady), and they were considered one and the same until about 30 years ago (I'm pretty unconvinced that they are different at all). V. annabella is also quite closely related to the Red Admiral group of species, and it can hybridize with V. atalanta Red Admiral (and probably the others too, except they live on another continent). The hybrids were named Vanessa edwardsi, and pop up in California moderately regularly, particularly in the Bay Area for some reason.

Western (or West Coast) Ladies do have a tendency to wander, and they turn up in the east from time to time, there is one here on BugGuide from Minnesota (still a long way from New York). However, they are very rare east of the Great Plains. (The Great Plains are however a long way east of the West Coast!)

… David J. Ferguson, 29 October, 2008 - 2:31pm

"Intergrades", Thank You

Thank you David, I did see some nice images of those exotic butterflies...*sigh*...well, back to North America. I think the specimens in this discussion refute the “seasonal theory.” How are we to understand this phenomenon, genetic variation within a species? Not likely a matter of subspecies?

… David Moll, 29 October, 2008 - 4:17pm

not sure

I would call it individual variation, probably genetic, but perhaps response to environmental factors (or both). Not much of substance in that answer though. It would definitely make an interesting study. I would agree, not likely a subspecies sort of thing, since this is a highly migratory species, and it is quite probable that all populations on the continent (and perhaps even beyond) are closely related, with genes constantly getting stirred through the entire population.

… David J. Ferguson, 29 October, 2008 - 4:35pm

Seasonal Variation

This Seasonal Variation is quite a fascinating topic to me, so I went to see if I had any late American Ladies to compare with the images in these comments. Here in my area of Southern Illinois, the latest I've seen American Ladies flying has been July 20th. I suppose they fly longer in other parts like New York? All the one's I've seen have the white dot, but then they are from about the same time period, seasonwise. (Latish-May to mid-July, with their prime being the month of June, for Southern Illinois.)

… Kenneth Dwain Harrelson, 29 October, 2008 - 4:31pm

I'm Going With American Lady Too

The white dot, the sqared-off apices (intermediate between Painted Lady & West Coast Lady)make me say American Lady, however, its not all that clear cut with the forewing costal spot being quite orange (indicative of West Coast Lady). I bevieve I've seen specimens like this though not recently. I haven't been able to examine them or research them but I think I've seen them in the wild. Still, American Lady. If anyone knows of these "intergrades" please enlighten us.

… David Moll, 26 October, 2008 - 11:17pm

West Coast Ladies

Can West Coast Ladies be found in New York? My guide doesn't make this clear enough. I just figured they were on the West Coast only because of the name. I could be wrong - I have been many times before!

… Kenneth Dwain Harrelson, 27 October, 2008 - 1:46am

Strays

I am a firm believer on Butterflies having the ability to wander into areas where they haven't been seen before, so maybe that's what has happened here. I know there was a long discussion about a year ago on BugGuide, involving me, about whether or not a Peck's Skipper could have been spotted somewhere outside of it's range. All I said was that it was possible, which it is. The other person, who disagreed with this statement (I have no clue why), is no longer registered as a user with that name. I have contacted an organization that I think might have the "remains" of that Butterfly in question, but haven't gotten a reply yet. If they do have what's left of it, I figured DNA testing could be performed on it to see if it was, in fact, an actual Peck's Skipper or not.

… Kenneth Dwain Harrelson, 29 October, 2008 - 4:20pm

wanderers

This butterfly is where it should be; it's just of a minority color form. However -

Things definitely get moved around, whether on their own, or with help. Sometimes they show up in unexpected places where they have probably been present but unnoticed all along. At least one relatively fresh specimen (or maybe it was two) of Vanessa indica buana (a Red Admiral from Sulawesi) supposedly showed up happily flying around in Texas not too long ago. Hard to imagine how it got there, but it might represent a current breeding population (???).

… David J. Ferguson, 29 October, 2008 - 4:44pm

No, Not to My Knowledge.

Not only that but they would be far, far away. However these species are extraordinary migrators.

Guide book range maps tend to be not very detailed, incomplete, out of date and so forth, but I still think that a West Coast Lady in New York would be an extraordinary record.

My recollection is that I have seen these "intergrades" at this time of year so it may be a seasonal phenomenon. Note that the orange of the forewing costal spot is noticeably pale.

Here are just a few BugGuide images with the light orange spot:

and check the comments on this one:

Check other images to see how white the spot is otherwise.

… David Moll, 27 October, 2008 - 2:53pm

...

… Ron M., 27 October, 2008 - 2:37am

I linked your images...

Images of the same specimen should be linked. It makes it easier for others to find all the images of the same individual insect if they are linked. I also cropped your image.

And the original image was confirmed but not as a Painted Lady. I suggested it was an American Lady (Vanessa virginiensis) and Jason Forbes confirmed that citing that "the white dot in the orange is distinctive". Feel free to leave it here if you want a third opinion.

… Ron M., 26 October, 2008 - 7:47pm

Butterfly ID

Thanks for the ID. I am just a total amateur.
Really appreciate everybodies help.

… Leonard525, 28 October, 2008 - 6:26pm