wing shapes.

Wing shape is not in the least bit reliable when determining species of Apantesis. The only method by which a certain ID can be made is by examination of genitalia. While some markings and/or characteristics may be more typical, the variation is far too broad for any such superficial differences to be diagnostic. They have simply not panned out over extended examination of the genus.

Phalerata seems to have pointier FWs, and nais & vittata seem to have more rounded FWs. But, I could be wrong.

I'm sure. I've been working with this group for about a year now, keeping good communication with several Arctid experts. The examination of genitalia is the only means possible for a certain ID. Even then, it can be difficult, as the aedeagus of nais/vittata/carlotta contain enough similar variation to be nearly confused if not for the distinct uncus of each species. Fortunately for phalerata, one need not dissect, but can distinguish the male valve from the others by its longer up curved apex which is visible by simply brushing the scales off of the last sternite.

Each species does have certain characteristics which may commonly appear in populations; for instance the spots/no spots on the patagia, the color of costal border, or wing shape. However, these characteristics are simply not consistent and are too variable to be diagnostic. What you're noticing would be more considered typical characteristics. For instance, one species may have a pair of spots on the patagia in 70% (or even 80%) of the sampling, but because there is a margin of variation, the characteristic cannot be considered diagnostic. And when another species in the group shares the same variation, we're left using the only truly diagnostic feature we can count on - genitalic examination.

(See further discussion here and here)

Believe me, I'm as frustrated as anyone that we have a bunch of Apantesis photos that can't really be placed "for certain." But technically speaking, this is what we're dealing with.

If anyone wants to send any male Apantesis specimens to me, for me to extract and examine the genitalia to make a firm ID, I'd be more than happy to - just email me and we'll talk details. I'm out of stain and KOH right now, but I could use an excuse to order more. :-)

my wing shape pic can be frassed.
Also, try to identify this:


I don't know if you've seen this, but it sure is useful.

I'd be more than happy to ID Ray's two specimens provided they are males, and if he doesn't mind sending them to me for dissection. Otherwise, they're likely ID'd as far as they can be at genus level (although the lower moth strikes me as probably vittata form 'radians').

And yes, I'm very familiar with Dr. Fauske's site. It has been very helpful in the past, but in light of recent research and data, the key is better suited to a generalized key for typical specimens in the ND region, but not necessarily as a diagnostic tool for the group.

Keep in mind that not every expert agrees, but this is the consensus as of recently. And it could change with further research.

Ron, we're synchronized today.
I wonder how much the inner wing pattern can vary within the species. Anna's has what appears to be bigger black spots than the Apantesis phalerata pic I'd found. The outer wings match though. Sorry, I should have used your picture. :)

I find these are sometimes difficult to ID. I am sure about the genus but not 100% sure on the species. There are a couple of other Tiger Moths that look close.

I usually use my images, if they are good enough, because they are easier for me to find :)

thank you very much