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Once again: Stop scolding newbies

I am a veteran editor here at Bugguide, almost since its beginning. I don't visit much anymore because too often other editors exhibit intolerance and impatience with new users. In the last two days I have become aware of two instances in which the first comment on a new submission was a complaint (image not cropped, horrible angle for making an ID, etc). I personally vetted one of those submissions through a Facebook page of beetle experts, *then* suggested to the person she should submit the image to Bugguide as a state record. I was truly embarrassed for suggesting that given the response her image received.

Lately, I am far more apt to refer people to Project Noah or i-Naturalist instead of Bugguide. The editors at those sites are generally far more friendly.

Our first priority here should be to make people feel welcome, not repelled. Bugguide is an important resource because there are so many participants! The more eyes out there the more we collectively learn about insect distribution, natural history, and other aspects of a species' biology. We cannot afford to have the reputation of elitism we are rapidly accruing.

Should this problem persist, I will be recommending to administrators that certain individuals be removed from the website, or at least demoted from "editor" status. Only *you* can change your attitude and etiquette. I look forward to seeing that happen.

Contributed by Eric R. Eaton on 2 July, 2014 - 12:11pm

What do you think of this, Eric?

Contributor objects to frassing of uncropped image with locality information entered incorrectly after it was identified only to tribe. Image then proves identifiable to species but only on a laptop when viewed in "big image" mode available only to editors

… John S. Ascher, 10 August, 2014 - 12:28am

Perfect example of Proper Etiquette

Thank you, John, for linking to that thread. The Balaban's explanation is the best I've ever seen, and worded in a way that could not possibly be taken as offensive.

I am pretty certain that most casual/initial users don't read the instructions, and we will just have to live with that as seasoned veterans.

The overall mission of BugGuide should, in my opinion, be to encourage awareness and appreciation of the role of arthropods in nature, be that the backyard, farm, ranch, or wilderness. As such, we can't afford to alienate folks. Thank you. I'm happy to end this discussion if that is agreeable to everyone else. I think it has been mostly productive.

… Eric R. Eaton, 10 August, 2014 - 12:42pm

Hmmm...

It's interesting that my feelings have been bruised by one of those demanding more courtesy -- which only goes to prove that one of the down-sides to reading the printed word is that you can't hear the inflection of the one voicing the sentiment. (I got over it.) I'm never offended by a short, to-the-point ID. However, my camera and my skills often limit my photographs and sometimes the insects are not the most helpful. Some are more photogenic than others -- some reflect too much light, others simply absorb all the light. So, I do prefer a gentle suggestion when my photos are not up to par. I'm not afraid to get right up to an insect but many who post here for the first time are genuinely afraid of what they are seeing and can get only a blurry shot from a distance. Perhaps Ken Wolgemuth or John and Jane should craft some responses for all to use -- they are the epitome of kindness and grace and have responded to some of the ugliest comments with gentle answers that have put and end to the conversation!

… Gacko, 26 July, 2014 - 6:38pm

One of the secrets to remaining civil...

...is to choose carefully the comments to which one responds--and then to resist the urge to fire off the first thought that enters one's head. You'll note, for example, that I have pointedly avoided this particular minefield until now, and that I shall continue to tiptoe around its perimeter. :)

The only other observation I would make, for what it may be worth, is that even the most hurried or curt comment/critique/request can be leavened tremendously with a simple "please" or "thank you," or "I'm sorry, but..."

I do appreciate the kind words. Thanks!

… Ken Wolgemuth, 27 July, 2014 - 9:28am

The power of "Thank you"

duly noted.

… Peter W. Messer, 27 July, 2014 - 9:48am

Excellent.

Outstanding, Ken, Peter. Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you.

… Eric R. Eaton, 27 July, 2014 - 2:59pm

I prefer...

The beatings will continue until morale improves

:-P

… Blaine Mathison, 27 July, 2014 - 11:08am

That line

ALWAYS makes me giggle/snicker!

… Gacko, 28 July, 2014 - 1:20pm

and Please help -

One difficulty, of course, is that there are so many posts, and we need more help getting things answered and put away. We got back from vacation a week or so ago and found about 4000 images in ID Request! We have been moving batches of them to Beetles and Moths and Butterflies, etc. And, we have been moving plenty of images that are small or fuzzy to Frass if they have received an ID. But the sheer number of posts means that we don't have a lot of time for commentary. We do post a note that says we don't need the image for the guide.

But we would say the last twenty pages or so of ID Requests are images that we are not knowledgeable enough to handle. Anyone who can look at those last 500 images and give an ID and decide if the images are useful for the guide would be most appreciated. We can use all the help we can get with IDs and decisions. There is just not enough time in the day. Thanks in advance

… john and jane balaban, 12 July, 2014 - 10:57am

Bottom line

Be kind.

… John VanDyk, 12 July, 2014 - 9:46am

Corollary: Near bottom line

Don't whine!

Thank you.

… Peter W. Messer, 12 July, 2014 - 9:55am

Stop scolding editors

It's not very friendly to threaten banning or demotion of other volunteers

… John S. Ascher, 11 July, 2014 - 10:38pm

Some of the offenders aren't even editors

They're just contributors who like to go around pointing out how bad people's photos are. In an ideal world, I would say we should just give these people a hug and a box of chocolates to try to lift them out of whatever personal doldrums are causing their anti-social behavior, but that hardly seems practical. Banning seems extreme - that seems like something you would do if there are direct threats or violent language being used. Temporarily disabling commenting ability, however, is a common tactic that I think is appropriate for people who are repeatedly rude to contributors. It really shouldn't be necessary to have to threaten sanctions, but then again it shouldn't be necessary to explain to grown adults how to talk to strangers in a civil manner. Shouldn't be, but apparently sometimes is.

Responding to someone's complaints by saying "grow a thicker skin" is using the language of bullies. It doesn't matter if you think someone is whining or being overly sensitive - if there's a behavior you can easily change to eliminate the issue, then just change it. We're all bug people, so most of us were teased and bullied as children (I certainly was), but that doesn't give us the right to be jerks just because we grow up and learn how to use a digital camera.

… Cliff Bernzweig, 12 July, 2014 - 10:49am

Maybe when BugGuide 2.0 finally comes around

humans will have developed the necessary thicker skin for coping with such emotional issues.

Thank you.

… Peter W. Messer, 12 July, 2014 - 9:42am

Amen

An addendum to this: if you can take the time to tell someone their photo is terrible (in the vain hope that somehow the photographer is totally unaware of this, and your criticism is going to suddenly turn his life around), why not take that same time to just ask if they have any better photos? If you tell people their photos are terrible, they might reasonably come to the conclusion that we don't want them to submit anymore. If you say to that person, "hey, do you have any larger/clearer photos of this bug," sometimes they repost much better pictures that for some reason they decided not to post in the first place. And failing that, sometimes they actually go back and get better photos.

Also, if you are going to tell someone you can't ID their bug because the angle is bad, it's probably worth actually telling them what the best angle would be. Or just asking them if they have photos of said angle.

Oh, and another thing that drives me up the wall: the "look it up yourself" people. Isn't "ID Request" called "ID Request" for a reason? It's not "Please teach me a lesson in self-sufficiency." These people are not taking your graduate-level entomology course - no life lessons or character-building necessary. Just give an ID if you want, and if not, go have a cup of coffee or read a book or something.

End rant - for now.

… Cliff Bernzweig, 5 July, 2014 - 11:08pm

Cliff--outstanding commentary!

… Marty R., 6 July, 2014 - 12:05am

Advice to newcomers

Editors and entomologists are like ants - they work on clean-up and pest control, and keep low to the ground with their own armies and police crews. If you are a non-targeted organism, keep your head down, stay close to water and dive in when necessary. If targeted, make sure you’re pesticide resistant.

… Lee Penner, 3 July, 2014 - 9:42am

Him ... I'm afraid I don't understand the problem.
With all respect, Eric you are an expert and you know very well the scientific purpose of BugGuide and the BG requirements for photos.
So, may I ask why you didn't teach the persons which you recommended to submit photos to BG, how to shoot (angle) or how to crop them to be best adequate for BG purpose?
I'm sure you know more like me about scientific photography.
Or, if by mistake, an another editor frass something valuable for BG, you like editor why you don't move the photo, from frass to the species, stating the value for which the photo should be kept? (Or at least make a comment on photo?) Or moving the photo from ID request, if it is still in there and saying an welcome for the newbie?
If you know he/she is a newbie!
In june 2014, was added 18115 (eighteen thousand ...!) new photos and active editors are a few, and it is understandable that they can not see the situation of BG beginner to everyone and why frequently their expressions are terse.
(BG statistics record 192 editors. Can you tell me how many editors was really active in last month? Active editors, let say editors who moved more like 10 or 20 photos by month in recent months?)
Or, maybe I understand wrong your message. If you want to say it is necessary a page for help newbies how to try to shoot (angle) and a minimal edit of photos (crop), and to explain how it works BG (moving photos and that the frass is not a penalty) and why sometimes the editors don't have time for longer comments and excuse them, yes am by your side.
Do you want to be kind and try to write such a page? (I can't, I'm not enough skill for that). Maybe a draft and you will complete depending on the comments of others.
Finally, I'm sorry Eric if something sounds bad. There's no bad intention on my part and I'm sorry for my English.
Respectfully, Iustin.

… Iustin Cret, 2 July, 2014 - 5:37pm

No excuses.

Simply clicking on the user's name will show how many images they have submitted. I'd consider them a newbie if it is 12 images or less.

If we consider public users requesting an identification to be inappropriate, or a "nuisance" to our mission, then fine, make Bugguide a private website requiring a subscription fee or something. Otherwise, if you don't have a kind word for a submission, simply don't comment, at least not initially.

We have already alienated a good number of prospective contributors with a poor first impression. I'm not going to tolerate that trend any longer.

Your English is just fine, no need to apologize. Your tone is also fine, thank you for your courtesy.

… Eric R. Eaton, 2 July, 2014 - 7:32pm

Why should free public access

entail low data quality expectations for submissions?

… John S. Ascher, 24 July, 2014 - 7:54am

Why is having high standards for one's own photos

an excuse to be an a-hole to strangers who just want to know what they saw?

… Cliff Bernzweig, 24 July, 2014 - 8:34am

Wasn't endorsing rudeness

If strangers want to know what they saw they should make a minimal effort to follow best practices of our community

… John S. Ascher, 25 July, 2014 - 9:18am

Best practices

Free public access means that people can (and will) submit photos of all levels of quality and usefulness. We already have a system in place to deal with photos that don't have permanent usefulness in the guide. I think what some of us are trying to say is that our "best practices," as editors, should include accepting the fact that well-meaning people are going to submit sub-par photos, and dealing with those photos in a respectful manner. My feeling is that if you can identify a crappy photo, and you have the time, just identify it, then frass, or if it's something interesting, request a better photo. ID Request should be about identifying bugs, not photography class or judging people's level of effort. If it's a crappy photo you can't identify, just request a better photo, or just frass it.

… Cliff Bernzweig, 26 July, 2014 - 9:59am

Exactly!

It is not a matter of submitters being "thin-skinned," it is a matter of polite etiquette among those who review submissions. The burden should be on *us* as editors to make at least *some* effort at being nice.

My wife made the point yesterday in our private conversation that a "casual" public submitter could potentially become a valuable, consistent contributor here, but not if they are immediately turned off by the responses to their initial efforts.

We have had some very outstanding contributors in the past who have up and left Bugguide, taking all of their images with them, because they have been offended. I don't want to see that happen again if it can be avoided (and yes, some people do have an "attitude" that exists irregardless of how they are treated).

… Eric R. Eaton, 27 July, 2014 - 8:53am

Good points. But I cannot endorse threatening to

abandon the site depriving the vast number of polite members of your images and contributions in response to certain relatively very few people making thoughtless comments at times.

Always surprised how offended some people are when their obviously bad photos are frassed or critiqued.

… John S. Ascher, 29 July, 2014 - 11:24am

Bah-hah, ha, ha!

I'm never surprised how offended entomologists are when their obviously bad science is trashed or critiqued. Remember the discussion on "What is a species". http://bugguide.net/node/view/748309

Oh, wait - you deleted your post! Only the header is left "Despite imposing on its head...". Is this called covering up one's thoughtless comments? Bah-hah, ha, ha!

… Lee Penner, 29 July, 2014 - 4:36pm

Would be even more useful if you found and corrected

My misidentifications.

… John S. Ascher, 30 July, 2014 - 7:29pm

What part of this is so hard to understand?

People post in ID request to find out what they saw, not to solicit criticism. If you go to a clothing store to buy a pair of pants, the salespeople will help you find the color and style you like, help you find a good fit, and maybe give some advice on other clothes to wear with them. They aren't going to tell you that if you were a bit slimmer or less ugly you'd look better in their clothes. If you had a salesperson like that at your store, you'd reprimand him or fire him.

… Cliff Bernzweig, 29 July, 2014 - 1:50pm

Walk in with no shoes or shirt

And what happens?

… John S. Ascher, 30 July, 2014 - 7:27pm

Don't have time to click on all users' names

Sorry

… John S. Ascher, 24 July, 2014 - 7:52am

Also....

I hasten to add that I am often able to at least offer a ballpark identification from some of the blurriest, most distant images you can imagine. I kid people about using Google Earth to take an image of, say, a spider, just so they can maintain a safe distance. They like my sense of humor and appreciate that I make an effort at helping them.

… Eric R. Eaton, 2 July, 2014 - 7:36pm

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