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Home » Forums » General Discussion

If not IDable past Family then frass?

Hi, wondering: I have a photo of a bug at a Species level, but can't ID it further to a Subspecies. There are other Beetles like this in our province, in May and in Sept. My photo was also taken in Sept, however this location is about 250 miles from the other person's submission. When I submitted it for an ID, it was asking what kind of beetle, I had it in the family but didn't know if the Subfamily could be determined. It couldn't be, as I had no further shots of any other angles, therefore it was frassed. So if I can't ID further than Species level, should I not submit?
Thank you.
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Contributed by Fran K on 30 November, 2014 - 7:44am

Images
There is a post in-- Articles-- that will help you with the views needed for Identification.

A Bug Photographer's Guide to Critical Images Needed for Identification.
… Lisa I., 5 December, 2014 - 12:09am login or register to post comments

We're a little confused --
you talk about Family and Subfamily and then switch to Species and Subspecies. Those are very different questions.

If an insect can't be ID'd past Family, you're right, it will likely get frassed -- but not necessarily. For a butterfly that would certainly be true. For some beetles it would be true. For millipedes it might not be true.

But an insect that was identified to species would probably be kept -- but not necessarily. It would depend on the quality of the image and the number of images of that species from your region in the guide. Identifying an Asian Lady Beetle to species would not insure that it would be kept. We get countless images of those.

But whether or not your insect could be ID'd to subspecies would not likely be part of the decision. Most visitors to BugGuide are interested in species information. Not many would attempt to go beyond that to subspecies separation. Subspecies ID is not a requirement for keeping an image.
… john and jane balaban, 30 November, 2014 - 8:11am login or register to post comments

 
another on that...
Hi, John and Jane; ok I see another very recent change: http://bugguide.net/node/view/956542#1802021 indicates this beetle I started in ID request, then Blaine M said Dichelonyx sp. so it went to Dichelonyx Genus.
There are no other Dichelonyx in Saskatchewan.
Then this morning it was moved to frass for "no further ID potential"
Just wondering why it wasn't moved from Genus Dichelonyx back a level to the Tribe level. (there's none for Saskatchewan at the Tribe level either) Is there any value to having it in the Tribe Dichelonychini?
or even move it back to the Subfamily Melolonthinae - May Beetles and Junebugs?
I'm trying to understand which level which bugs get sent to frass because of no further ID potential.
I posted this question as a reply but the reply is to the bug that's in frass. I don't even know...do replies get looked at once the photo goes to frass?
Perhaps I shouldn't worry about figuring that out and just let the experts frass? (note all my questions are in earnest, no sarcasm, I'm really wanting to know and am fine with the experts frassing) Are contributors expected to know which level which bugs should be frassed at?
Just trying to help. Thanks.

a p.s. added after ... so what happens to a Photo that started out in ID request and gets moved to "Moths"? will it probably be frassed? wouldn't it be better kept in ID request? I'm referring to http://bugguide.net/node/view/960830
… Fran K, 30 November, 2014 - 9:24am login or register to post comments

 
Images are moved deeper and deeper into the guide
as they get ID'd more precisely. They only get moved to a higher taxonomic level if there is a question about the ID. Images are not saved at high taxonomic level. They are moved deeper or they are removed. How much time it takes for that to happen can vary from a few days to as much as ten years! It all depends on the image, the species, and the expert who notices it.

There is no single answer on whether an image will be selected for the guide or for removal. There are too many possibilities. But as Ken replied on your frassed beetle, you can override a decision made by an editor. If you want your Saskatchewan Dichelonyx on the genus page, feel free to move it there. But apparently it can't be identified to species from this particular image. When you move it, you might ask the experts to tell you what kind of image to take next time so that it can be ID'd

There is never any reason to move an image back to ID Request. It will end up at the end of ID Request, possibly 50 pages deep, where it won't get noticed. The best place is usually the order page, or in the case of your moth, the Moths page. That's where the moth experts will visit. It may get moved to Family, though if that is Noctuidae, that's often a dead end. It doesn't seem that anyone visits there,possibly there are just too many.
… john and jane balaban, 30 November, 2014 - 5:18pm login or register to post comments

 
info requested
Great answer. Ten years! LOL - well that's good to know, and totally understandable when one thinks of the many insects out there. Frankly, I'm quite amazed at the speed most of the ID's are done. This is a fantastic site with a lot of people working hard. I know the "thank you's" plug up space and time to be read, but I am SO thankful for people like you that are doing all they do on bugguide.
That is excellent advice, to ask for certain ones what kind of image. I'm never sure when I come across a bug where to focus on, so I try to get all angles, it can be hard if the bug takes off, though. Thanks!
… Fran K, 1 December, 2014 - 9:14am login or register to post comments

 
Yes, my apologies, I meant Fa
Yes, my apologies, I meant Family and Subfamily. Sounds good, that explains it. Makes sense. Thanks for your reply.
… Fran K, 30 November, 2014 - 8:57am login or register to post comments

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