Are you sure this is Heliothis subflexa? Based on your own info, this is Heliothis virescens. The PM line (not ST, IMHO) definitely reaches the costa below the apex on this moth.

"In Heliothis virescens the subterminal line ends noticeably below the apex."

Hello Jan! I am just trying to learn so bear with me - what characteristics in this moth differentiates it from which was identified as Heliothis virescens? I appreciate any info.

Ted, probably the best difference is in the subterminal line. In Heliothis subflexa the subterminal line ends in the apex of a forewing or very close to it. In Heliothis virescens the subterminal line ends noticeably below the apex. The green color of the forewings in H. virescens also is almost always darker than in H. subflexa. I think that the specimen on this picture is actually Heliothis subflexa, not H. virescens.

Jan, I'm really confused by your description of the "subterminal line". So do you consider the white lines the reference lines or the narrow dark shading beyond each of them as "the lines"? I can find no examples of either species in which the white subterminal line literally reaches the apex--it just doesn't go there--but the dark shading just beyond that 3rd white line does in fact go right to the apex on subflexa, ending with a tiny black dot in most examples. And you mention that on virescens that "the subterminal line ends noticeably below [emphasis added] the apex". What do you mean by "below"? More basad (i.e. towards the base of the wing)? Or do you mean further away from the costal margin towards the inner margin (which would be "lower" on a mounted specimen but more "dorsal" on a living moth. Help!

If I understand what you are saying, this does look like H. virescens to me. However, the front legs look like they have at least some rust color to them which would make it H. virescens according to Powell, J. A. & P. A. Opler, Moths of Western North America, Pl. 52.31m; p. 291. The labial palps are also mentioned as being rusty so additional images showing the front legs and palps would be great. I would guess that a better photo would show that what I think is rust is not rusty scales but bare spots.

No mention is made about the st. or pm. lines nor is wing color mentioned. With regards to what I think you are referring to as the st. line and what Ken is calling the pm. line, I do see a difference looking at BOLD images and other pinned images including those in Moths of Western North America and it appears that it generally ends at the costal margin anterior to the apex for H. virescens and for subflexa it hits the costal margin and then kind of hooks out toward the apex . It does seem to my eye the line does hook out toward the apex for this individual. This is more obvious in the other image posted. I am speaking about the posterior of the three pale lines bordered posteriorly by a band of dark shading. Is this the st. line or the pm. line and am I understanding your explanation correctly?

There's a lot of confusion with these 2 species, especially when working with photos. On some specimens the differences are more subtle than on others and the angle of the shot can distort these marks. Some of the images on the Moth Photographers Group are on the wrong pages which doesn't help matters.

Very interesting conversation and I must admit that descriptions of these two species continue to confuse me. Here are my two images identified as Heliothis subflexa and as Heliothis virescens. I would be very grateful if one/all of you gentlemen could point out the specific characteristics that contribute to correct ID (or not) of my images. :)

What I thought was the pm. line but Jan seems to be calling the st. line appears to end at the coastal margin about 4/5 of the way from the base in your virescens image. It ends slightly further out in your subflexa image but then seems to curve out toward the apex after hitting the coastal margin. However, looking at your dorsal view of the same moth, I am not seeing this at all. I think your virescens is correct but I'm not sure your subflexa can be identified even with the two views submitted. Same goes for this image.

I would defer to the judgment of Ken and Jan but it looks like Jan is away for the summer as he hasn't submitted comments in several weeks. Hopefully when he gets back, he will take a look at this and help clear up the confusion.

I've checked with other noted moth experts and another mark is the lines are basically parallel on virescens but the PM line on subflexa gently curves towards the apex. Again, the angle of the shot can distort the shape of this mark so the camera lens must be perpendicular to the forewing to show this clearly.

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Jan, thank you for the really clear, helpful explanation.

thanks for your comment.
Michel Kleinbaum

Michel, you can see an image of the moth Jan suggests at MPG

thanks again
Michel Kleinbaum

thanks for your help
Michel Kleinbaum