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Adalbert's Colorado Images

What exactly is the story with this section? 29 pages of poor images of dead specimens. Does anyone, or will anyone, ever look through these and make IDs? I just moved two icheumons and a sawfly so Bob Carlson and Dave Smith might see them, and I moved a heteropteran and a cerambycid since it didn't seem to make any sense to keep them filed under Hymenoptera. But for the rest of them, do the experts know they exist, or care? It just seems strange to me that these should get special treatment. The section seems to amount to Adalbert's personal Frass, except that it never goes away.

[Note: In addition to the discussion Beatriz linked to below, there is also this one.]

Okay, I'm starting to go through them, and I'm finding that Dr. Ascher has already commented on many of them. I'm moving those accordingly, and moving any bees without comments to Anthophila. Here, someone else can decide whether to frass or move to something more specific. There are occasional images that I'm moving to Vespidae or Hymenoptera (or Syrphidae); same goes for them. So far I've found two new species to BugGuide, confirmed by Dr. Ascher, and have made new guide pages for them. If anyone thinks I'm doing something terrible, please speak up.

why not keep most of these in their special section?
this was established for a reason

I prefer not to see the regular guides including the general Anthophila section cluttered with poor images of dead bees even if their identification has been confirmed.

If the photos are decent quality or the insect is new for Bugguide and reliably det. then a move to a guide makes sense.

If it helps any...
some time ago I went through and marked all of those images as non-representative, so they won't show up on Browse or Info pages unless an editor changes them back to representative (nothing we can do about the Images pages, unfortunately).

Although I'm not 100-percent on board- for the same reasons you mentioned- I think some of it is worthwhile. The whole idea of the special section was as a temporary compromise to avoid having to make a lot of difficult and contentious decisions all at once. Perhaps it's time to start dealing with them on a case-by-case basis.

Please. John,
Could you comment on those that should be frassed? Chuck or I or both are subscribed to them and can take care of the actual frassing after your comment. I know that it is a lot of work, but it looks like we have to do something about this big problem.

I'm OK with frassing any of the images without
confirmed IDs and any images of poor quality, i.e. nearly all of those remaining in the general Anthophila section. The only ones I'm enthusiastic about keeping are the better images of live insects and images, even not very good ones of dead specimens, of unusual species not otherwise represented with confirmed IDs. Most of these should already have been moved to their guide pages.

Please see
my reply below. I don't believe there are any images in the general Anthophila section with confirmed IDs, but I can understand your not wanting to see Adalbert's images there. I only moved images to more specific places (rather than Frass) if the IDs were confirmed by you AND they were decent images or underrepresented species.

oh, they know...
I spent most of Saturday reading the entire Taxonomy forum, back to front, and in May 2007 there was a ginormous exploding debacle of a Hymenoptera reorganization involving those. It is probably worth reading if only to see what nobody ever wants to happen again. Bring a flashlight and wear a hard hat, there may still be cave-ins.

It seems that the problems were 1) the frassing of potentially useful images and 2) the moving of images based on Adalbert's misidentifications. I would certainly take care to avoid both of these.

another issue is moving of images
that are poor quality so of little use even if correctly identified

yes, that's how I read it
Being polite and professional would've helped from the get-go, and hopefully the stench of that particular carcass has subsided and a polite and professional re-approach will be welcomed. Good luck!

Long story
They were better there than in the guide and there are some worth keeping despite their quality. Read more here. Yes, probably we'll have to do something about them sooner or later but this still seems the best "temporary" solution.

I see.
I read the whole discussion. Well, does anyone object to my beginning to move these to the appropriate order, family, or genus pages (to the extent I'm comfortable making the determination), where others may see them and determine their final resting places? They're not doing anyone any good in their current location, and I doubt any expert is going to want to wade through them all at once.

"They're not doing anyone any good in their current location"
but perhaps not doing any more good once moved elsewhere?

If you feel this way
I would be happy to have most of them frassed. Have you looked through them as much as you're going to? I hoped I was helping by moving the new (or rarely photographed) species, confirmed by you, to species pages; frassing others you'd commented on that did not seem to add value to the guide; moving non-bee taxa to their respective places (to be frassed before long, in most cases); and frassing some images I thought had no hope of ever being identified. The images of unidentified bees are now consolidated in the Anthophila section--although other editors have moved a few images to Bombus, etc. I apologize for not waiting for your input on this. I just think all BugGuide contributors should have the same standards applied to them, i.e., "Poor quality images . . . and those that otherwise do not add value to the guide" are moved to Frass once the experts have had an opportunity to examine them. I think you're the only person around with the expertise to judge whether any of Adalbert's bee photos have any value, so please let us know exactly what you think should be done. If you intend to continue sorting through these images, but would like them in their own folder, I can move them all back. If you are done looking at them, I think they should be frassed. If you think most should be frassed, but would like to keep some around, it would be very helpful if you could indicate which ones are which.

Adalbert is very knowledgeable, but at times wildly wrong. Don't take his IDs at face value- even to family (In a couple of cases, even to order!).

As for wading through them: John Ascher has been doing exactly that for quite a while. Although you have more sense than the last person who tried to do what you're attempting, I always get nervous when anyone tries to clear a minefield like this en masse.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got 47 more subscription emails to go through (yes, moving everything back there autosubscribed me to the whole section).

Being careful...
I have been essentially ignoring his IDs, and moving images only according to John Ascher's comments or my own knowledge.

I mostly moved the newer ones, which neither you nor Beatriz had moved... but I guess it only takes a few submissions with five or so linked images to clog up your email accounts. I'll try to pace myself with the remainder for your sake.

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