Interesting development: NOT C. longipalpa

All of yours look like longipalpa to me

Guess we'll just have to wait for more confirmed images before we can pick up on visual cues.

… john and jane balaban, 7 February, 2012 - 8:32pm

What do folks think about the following being variata?

They look much more like Reiskind fig 61 than fig 51

… john and jane balaban, 6 February, 2012 - 8:31pm

Here are my thoughts

2305 - not too sure. It's out of the range and the legs and carapace are pretty black while I'm looking for more brown. Also the joints don't all look yellow enough. I'd say no.

73309 - same as above. I'd say no.

110229 - This one does seem possible. I can see more brown and the yellow joints are visible.

119467 - I can't really tell. I'm leaning toward no, but it would be nice to see a male of C. variata first.

419419 - another male. I just don't know.

What about

I have a feeling that the juveniles may throw us off? Perhaps they look more like C. variata?

… Lynette Elliott, 7 February, 2012 - 8:58am

tibia IV

Tibia IV (dorsal) and further discussion here...

… Kevin Pfeiffer, 30 January, 2012 - 10:53am

got it!

… john and jane balaban, 28 January, 2012 - 3:56pm

I see big yellow rings on tibia 4

both front and back. Is that what you mean?

… john and jane balaban, 28 January, 2012 - 1:33pm

I don't know

all I see are white rings on tibia 4. The description also mentions that the joints are yellow, which I can easily see. I wish I had a written description of longipalpa. I'll have to look around.

… Lynette Elliott, 28 January, 2012 - 2:18pm

Wish granted :)

Here and plate 24 fig.9 here.(1)

… Chuck Entz, 28 January, 2012 - 11:08pm

Wow, die "ur-description". Lynette, you have Kaston, don't you? (Or the "Red Book" from Dondale & Redner?

Here is the epigynum, which I think is already sufficient evidence if you compare with the published illustrations of the two species, but I'll post cleared images of the disected epigynum later that show spermathecae and copulatory tubes.

… Kevin Pfeiffer, 29 January, 2012 - 1:54am

Thanks for the description Chuck

though I can't say it's much help. It's very general. Darn. Anyway, I'm not questioning the ID at all.... just trying to figure out if there is any way to tell the difference between these two species from a photo. The description of Castianeira variata leads me to believe it's possible, but every time I look for those yellow rings I'm sorely disappointed.

For my description of C. variata I'm using New American spiders of the Clubionidae by W.J. Gertsch, 1942.

… Lynette Elliott, 29 January, 2012 - 10:36am

Castianeira variata says hello

That is awesome!

Those posterior tibiae marked with distinct basal and distal yellow annulae (rings) do not appear to be visible without a microscope?

… Lynette Elliott, 28 January, 2012 - 1:02pm

tibial bands, yellow?

Hi,

I thought I'd weigh in on this because we (Steve Buchanan) and I spent some time trying to figure out if there were consistent differences between C. longipalpa and C. variata. We concluded that the tibial band coloration didn't seem much different at naked-eye view scale. So our illustration (for my forthcoming book) will be whitish on both. I hope this isn't a blunder. The best source I know of for these spiders is still Jon Reiskind's 1969 monograph. He does mention that both ends of the tibiae IV of C. longipalpa are white and then says they are yellow for variata. I just wish we could see it in photos or looking at the live beast.

The banding patterns (white setal bands on abdomen) are extremely variable. Most C. longipalpa that I've seen have many more bands, and more with complete bands, than C. variata, but I think that there is overlap in that character. The book illustrations are limited to one each for these species, so there is a danger of people getting too confident with visual ID's. This is going to be a general problem with speciose groups illustrated in the book.

Here is the Resisking citation for any that don't have it. I don't have any electronic access to this one:

Reiskind, Jonathan. 1969. The spider subfamily Castianeirinae of North and Central America (Araneae, Clubionidae). Bull. Mus. Comp. Zool., 138(5): 163-325.

Of course these spiders are now placed in Corinnidae.

Cheers,

Rich

… Richard Bradley, 2 February, 2012 - 5:30pm

Yes thanks for that info

I'm going to state on the info pages that we don't think these two species can be separated using field markings. Perhaps the species has lost that trait over the years?

… Lynette Elliott, 3 February, 2012 - 8:49am

It may be a trait that is visible in preserved specimens.

Remember that keys are written for preserved specimens not for live ones.

… john and jane balaban, 3 February, 2012 - 10:16am

Yes

that makes sense. Good thinking.

… Lynette Elliott, 3 February, 2012 - 3:21pm

Thanks for posting, Rich (Chuck, too),

Now I am finally understanding why the great interest in the color of these "rings" -- would probably help if I every now then actually _read_ some of the literature.

-K

… Kevin Pfeiffer, 3 February, 2012 - 12:31am

Yes you do... :)

The entirety of the issues for this journal up through 2003 are at Internet Archive. I made an index for it here (Internet Archive has great resources, but an incredibly lame "system" of cataloging).

The article in question is here.

… Chuck Entz, 2 February, 2012 - 10:40pm