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Ants, Bees, Wasps and Sawflies (Hymenoptera)
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"Symphyta" - Sawflies, Horntails, and Wood Wasps
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Common Sawflies (Tenthredinidae)
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Nematinae
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Willow Sawflies and allies (Nematini)
Photo#716400
Copyright © 2012
Kim Fleming
hatched
Donalds, Abbeville County, South Carolina, USA
October 21, 2012
I'd given up on these as duds -- they finally emerged! Not sure exactly when, since the last check was last month.
Images of this individual:
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Contributed by
Kim Fleming
on 21 October, 2012 - 2:37pm
Last updated 4 December, 2022 - 7:59am
Moved
Moved from
larvae unidentified beyond genus
.
…
Charley Eiseman
, 4 December, 2022 - 8:00am
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Moved
Moved from
"Symphyta" - Sawflies, Horntails, and Wood Wasps
.
…
John F. Carr
, 4 December, 2012 - 10:12pm
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Argidae
This is strange. I'm quite sure this is a species of Arge; one species is known to feed on elm. But the association of the eggs is confusing because species of Arge insert their eggs in leaf margins, not in twigs.
…
Dave Smith
, 20 November, 2012 - 7:44pm
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hmmm....
I suppose it could all be a coincidental -- I only know I'd seen the eggs still intact within a month earlier (I'd been watching them since spring but had just about given up on them by later September), and when I found they'd finally hatched the sawfly larvae were the only creatures around (there had been none previously). The larvae pictured here were actually found one twig over, but within inches, from the twig with the eggs. There were a couple other adjacent twigs with a random few larvae like these too.
…
Kim Fleming
, 22 November, 2012 - 8:08pm
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Other photos?
Would it be possible to upload a closer view of a larva? I think I may be seeing 4 annulets per segment, which would mean these are nematines rather than argids. Some nematines do insert eggs in stems, or at least in petioles etc. None are known to feed on elm, so if you have any photos that show more of the leaves, those would be interesting to see as well.
…
Charley Eiseman
, 3 December, 2022 - 2:22pm
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yes
I added a few more photos of the larvae. Does this help?
…
Kim Fleming
, 3 December, 2022 - 7:02pm
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Yes, thanks!
In addition to the number of annulets, the thoracic legs don't have the enlarged lobe next to the tarsal claw that argid larvae should have.
If these larvae came from those eggs, this is an unusual life cycle, with eggs laid in spring (or before?) and not hatching until October. And if the plant was definitely elm, then this is definitely not a species with known host/biology.
…
Charley Eiseman
, 4 December, 2022 - 8:04am
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adult?
Could this be the adult?
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/143685342
I noticed I took this sawfly larva's photo about 2 minutes after the smaller ones in this post. Looking at it now, it seems it is on the same tree. I can't figure out now though, why in the world I wouldn't have included its photo here too, if it was so near these. There are no photos showing both in the same frame. There's a set of the smaller ones, a couple minutes elapses, then a set of photos of this larger one.
…
Kim Fleming
, 4 December, 2022 - 6:03pm
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uh oh
I took some photos today and think now it may be American Hornbeam
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/143660276
I don't recall seeing it produce fruit or catkins yet, and it's a pretty small tree. There are definitely elm and winged elm in the vicinity and I was likely going by the leaves. But looking closer, they don't seem asymmetrical at the base as Elm leaves should be.
I am absolutely sure this is the tree though.
…
Kim Fleming
, 4 December, 2022 - 4:14pm
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That makes more sense
There are plenty of nematines associated with Betulaceae, and a couple have been reported from Carpinus specifically, but this life cycle doesn't match theirs. So if you come across these larvae again, it would definitely be worth collecting some for rearing, if you're up for it.
…
Charley Eiseman
, 4 December, 2022 - 7:04pm
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sure
and I think I can differentiate the trees now! I'll keep an eye out on the hornbeams, and maybe will get lucky.
…
Kim Fleming
, 5 December, 2022 - 6:31pm
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nice!
Nice work! I won't say I'm 100% confident on my tree ID skill here, especially 10 years ago, but I do know the precise tree and its location by the creek. (Part of it overhangs the creek and it's one I regularly check each year). I can check it again now or later in the spring and take some photos for an ID.
…
Kim Fleming
, 4 December, 2022 - 8:10am
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